Conversation with Eche Egbuonu, Business Lecturer, Author, Poet, Podcaster and Mental Health Advocate.

Eche explains he gets involved in a lot of projects simultaneously. As a Mental Health Advocate he runs seminars to bring people together to form solutions. He is also writing a book about the struggles and experiences of a young black man who has been trying to recover his life, after being diagnosed with a life changing mental illness diagnosis. There are a lot of things that he is interested in life.

In particular the development of young people; passing on lessons, inspirations and talking about some of the pitfalls that the older generation have fallen into and how to avoid them.

Louisa:

Thank you for taking time out to join me today, Eche. I know you are very busy and I appreciate your input to this very important topic. How are you?

Eche:

I’m fantastic. Thank you very much for inviting me on this platform

Louisa:

So Eche, what are the 3 key things which have positively impacted on your career progression and successes?

Eche:

I would say resilience and determination. For me, I had to go on a journey to come to the realisation that, the path that I ultimately went on was not the right one for me. I had to find a career path that was aligned to my values and my personality and this enriched my life to a degree that I can’t even describe.

My understanding of a traditional trajectory was that that, I should go into the corporate space somewhere and just work my way to the top, in the city. But as much as I tried I could not get myself through the corporate door.

Ultimately this route was something that didn’t mesh with my personality that created an opportunity to work with young people so I would say that that realisation -that I needed to be true to myself was the stage where I was at the true sense of fulfilment and purpose in my career.

Louisa:

So for you the 3 things are resilience, determination and being your authentic self?

Eche:

Yes that’s right

Louisa:

If you could have seen into the future what would you have done differently to improve your experiences?

Eche:

What I would have done differently was, I would’ve realised that you don’t need to be somebody else; I was a firm believer that this was an extrovert’s world so it was a struggle for me. However, if I had gone on this journey of discovery earlier and I had somebody to coach me through that, I think I could possibly have made this journey more streamlined.

But on the contrary going through everything that I did go thorough, brought me to this very position.So it’s one of those things where I don’t think I actually would’ve changed anything because I may not have made the growth that I have made without the struggles and suffering that I had to incur.

Louisa:

I find that quite often with these interviews that’s been the experience with most of the people I have interviewed. That even though you’ve been some real struggles and heartache, when you get there, to the place you want to be, you realise that you may not have been the person that you are now, without that. I totally get that

Louisa:

What do think we as BAME individuals need to do differently to impact on the data? (Some 78% of UK companies have a senior leadership team that fails to reflect the demographics and population – McKinsey’s Report “Diversity Matters”)

Eche:

Thank you for that question. One of the things we need to do from an early age is making young people aware of the range of career paths that are open and how to get into them. I only stumbled into lecturing it wasn’t something I really considered at all. I didn’t know about this option. There’s an old saying “be the change you want to be”

So the first stage is knowledge - we need to know the pathways to these careers? Then secondly we have to understand these things will take time. We need to get the experience and rise up. We are suddenly finding we are in positions of power and so I think those two things together.  As long as there’s also mentorship those (BAME) who get in those senior positions can provide some sort of guidance to the younger generation. Those who follow, they can then see this is what is possible and this is what I can aspire to. So it’s climbing down and reaching instead of pulling up the ladder.

Louisa:

How do you think individuals can challenge organisational barriers to progression?

Eche:

Well that one is going to be a tough one for me to answer because working in the teaching field it’s quite meritocratic and they want results and there’s not much of a hierarchy in that particular sense.

I guess there needs to be transparency in the recruitment decision making process. So for example being able to explain why I did not get that position and that X person got the position instead. Sometimes because each individual/team will have their own procedures and processes it’s hard to get that justification. Sometimes there may be an element of prejudice that has affected that decision, but it’s going to be difficult to prove that. I guess from the individual level it is about managing what is within our control. Get yourself skilled up and just be excellent to the point where it’s undeniable that you are the right person for the role and then they can’t then ignore you. You will capture an opportunity whether it’s at the firm you’re in or it could be at another firm that will see your experience and your qualities and they’ll take you up on that particular position.

Louisa:

So my understanding of what you’ve just said, is that you have to prove beyond doubt that you are the right person for the job and the reason for that is because where there is a conscious bias in the process, it is very difficult to prove it. So rather than try to get to bottom of this as an individual you have to aim to be better than the best?

Eche

Yes

Louisa:

The McGregor-Smith Review said leadership and culture provide the barriers but also the solutions that enable BAME individuals' success. How important is mentoring, coaching, sponsorship in supporting your personal and career progression? How, if at all, did it impact on your visibility in your work arena?

Eche:

I think it’s very important and I think it’s even more important from a Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic person’s context. But whenever you can find potential for knowledge; someone who has more experience, for example someone who works here, in my department and has been teaching for the last 25 years, I’m going to go to that person for guidance whenever I can, regardless of their ethnicity. 

But at the same time when it comes to ethnic minorities in this context, that mentoring needs to work both ways. So you have a mutual understanding and a mutual relationship; the person who is excepting the mentorship needs to embrace the opportunity and the person that is that is doing the mentoring needs to have that optimism and that passion for helping the person to progress. There’s no more of that crab mentality; so each one teach one. There is enrichment and showing the realms of possibility.

I will say my journey has not been a conventional one. Because despite doing really well at University I still struggled to land my first graduate job I was looking at my peers and they were all flourishing and these were peers of ethnic minority so I couldn’t use that as a reason for holding me back.

I had to come to the conclusion that I had to find out exactly what was holding me back and that’s how it links back to what I said about the authenticity. I was just trying to be something and someone that I wasn’t at the time. I was applying for positions because I thought this was what I wanted but in actual fact it wasn’t.

Louisa:

What examples of great inclusive leadership have you experienced or seen in practice? 

Eche:

So in terms of inclusive leadership I would say when I was when I was working for the Young Black Men Project the management had a very inclusive process in terms of the individuals that were getting involved, the contributions that were allowed and who they reached out to. I would say that there was a good example of inclusive leadership if you are talking about different demographics; ethnicity, ages, the team is quite varied. Since we are working with young people it was good to be able to engage with young people and that they were more senior individuals who had life experiences that they were interacting with.

Louisa:

What were the examples of inclusive leadership; what did they actually do?

Eche:

How would you categorise inclusive leadership so I know how to answer this?

Louisa:

When you communicate as a leader, you make sure your words and your language is inclusive and the platform that you use is inclusive regardless of what grade, what ethnicity, what background so that everyone can understand and communicate with other. Or it could be where someone is mentored to apply for a job so that’s the type of things you might class as inclusive leadership.

Eche:

Okay well in that context I’ll come even closer to where we are now. I was moved up to the coordination position and it was a senior manager who encouraged me and played a mentorship role and that helped give me the confidence to actually make that step up Before the summer holidays I wasn’t interested at all so I would say that was a great example of inclusion inclusive leadership.

Louisa:

So how do you think this kind of behaviour can be embedded in an organisation?

Eche:

This is the tricky part because what we’re talking about here is cultural change, which is difficult unless you have the people at the very top with a commitment and a dedication, making sure that all departments are recruiting with integrity. That’s a very difficult hurdle to overcome. It’s actually very sad that I’m struggling to find an adequate answer because as you mentioned if someone is a great leader they do tend to move on and you’re back to square one.

I think in this particular context one way you can embed it, is to make sure that there is the training and the transparency. I do think that unconscious bias training might push some people the other way they might think that you are implying or insinuating that they are a racist so it may have a detrimental impact on what you’re trying to achieve but ultimately I think it has to come down to working and hiring people with integrity. Make it as meritocratic as possible so that great effort is rewarded regardless of your colour, of your ethnicity, of your gender, of your age. Think about how you can foster that culture so it can come from the top down but also can move sideways up, as well as upwards. So you, as an individual perhaps, if you don’t like the culture you need to be empowered to be the person to change it. Perhaps when you climb up the ladder as a BAME person you are in a better position where you can make that change.

Louisa:

How do you manage to negotiate politics against being your authentic self? What successful strategies did you have to embrace and tackle conflict situations?

Eche:

With regards to office politics, I try not to engage in any kind of backhanded remarks and gossip that will occur. It’s definitely off-putting to hear some of the things that people will say. Staff members and even students so I tend to avoid those kind of interactions and try to focus on what I’m doing and to be honest even though I haven’t necessarily come across any overt acts of racism or prejudice in this teaching capacity something interesting happened yesterday which made me think. “What are the implications of this?”.

We are in the enrolment process and I was taking over from someone else and as this person was leaving they identified two young individuals; two black boys and said to me “Good luck with these ones, they look like they’re a handful”

When I spoke to these two individuals they were pleasant determined and ambitious young men. This person had a negative perception of the two individuals, whom they knew nothing about, and had made a judgement that they were going to be a handful. I thought about how that would manifest down the line. That person now assumes a position of higher power. So that was an interesting moment.

Louisa:

That’s a perfect example of unconscious bias at work.

Eche:

They weren’t doing anything different to anybody else; they were simply sitting in chairs so that prejudice, that perception, that judgement had already been made.

Especially coming from the educational context it’s quite disturbing actually, because of the wide implications of this when it comes to curriculum delivery, when it comes to behaviour, management and everything.

Louisa:

The reports repeatedly say that organisations are uncomfortable talking about race, what is your organisation doing to change this currently?

Eche:

My college is very diverse when it comes to staff recruitment and teachers are encouraged to embed diversity in their lessons and also during assessment.

Students are encouraged to form clubs and societies exploring issues for different demographics/ethnicities. This operates in conjunction with the enrichment activities that the college delivers discussing such themes.

Louisa:

Finally Eche, on a scale of 1 -10 to what degree do you think you have reached your full potential at work? (1 being: You have barely began to reach your full potential and 10 being: You are already at your full potential at work achieving and performing at your best)

Eche:

This is definitely a question I was looking forward to. I would say I am a strong 1 out of 10 when it comes to potential because I’m firmly of the belief that there is no ceiling as far as where I can develop and I’m only at the beginning. There’s always somewhere else I can go, there’s always something more that I can do, there’s always more skills that I can develop. I can develop more confidence, be more personable and more creative. This thinking keeps me grounded and keeps me fixated with personal development, personal growth and spiritual growth.

Louisa:

On a scale of 1-10 to what degree do you feel your ethnicity may have hindered your progression at work? (1 being: You don’t believe your ethnicity has impacted on your progression at work and 10 being: You are certain that your ethnicity has profoundly hindered your progress at work?

Eche:

If I use my teaching role then, probably, as it is my first role. Based on that alone I would say it is a strong 1 out of 10 because I have gone from being new to the department to now moving into a coordination role within the space of 10/11 months so there’s been no barriers in that regards. From what I can see teaching tends to be more of an meritocratic environment

Louisa:

Thank you very much Eche for sharing your insights and talking to us about your journey. Is there anything else that you’d like to add?

I think the only thing I want to say really is well done for having these conversations which will allow the dissemination of knowledge and ideas and will enable people to step up and be the change that they want to see. My final thoughts on that is that we can only do what is within our focus of control so there’s no point in worrying about what this person or that person is doing. In doing so we might neglect our own development and what we are in a position to impact.

When I think of London in 25 years’ time, I see the landscape shifting significantly because a lot of people will have seen that we (BAME people) are capable of holding those senior positions. So I think in time we will ultimately see those changes.

Through BAMEtoBoardroom I am talking to Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people about their challenges and successes at work and sharing these conversations with you. Perhaps for those reading this, some of the elements we have talked about today can inspire you to start to have some of those conversations with colleagues today.

Please connect with me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. to find out more about our Dialogue Programme or perhaps you would like to take part in one of our interviews. 

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